May 1996 Eczema Mailing List Archive

Julia, I found your comments on sweating very interesting, my husband who suffers relatively bad ezcema doesn't sweat much, Nicky does sweat although her skin is good at the moment it will be interesting to see how she is this summer. Have you noticed if Esme seems to have a high skin temperature? 

I noticed this after Nicky was born, I have never picked her up and felt her to be cold whatever the weather. Ed's skin temperature is also very high, sometimes I find it almost impossible to be close to him as he gives off heat like a blast furnace, we did ask a doctor if this was normal but he didn't seem to have any opinion. Does anyone have any opinion about skin temp and itching?

Wet wraps is a bandaging system. You put a double layer of bandages on, the inside layer goes on wet and the outside layer goes on dry. This is how it works.

At bed time we put on the usual steroid cream and moisturiser.

Then we make a "body suit" out of bandages. We need four arm, four leg and two body bandages. We make these from cotton stretch bandaging (UK brand name: Tubifast) knotted at hands and feet to encase her limbs, and armholes cut in the body bandages. The exact size of bandage/location of holes you work out through trial and error. You now have two sets of bandages.

The first layer is soaked in plain warm water then put on to the body. The second layer goes on top dry. When it's all on you tie the arm and leg bandages to the body bandage to hold it all together.

The next morning it all comes off. It is time consuming. The bandages can be washed though they do disintegrate eventually but once you have a few sets made it takes a bit less time. In the UK we get the bandages on the NHS.

It works by keeping the skin moist and cool therefore reducing itchiness; protecting the skin from scratching; and also increases the efficiacy of lower strength steroids.

It has made a massive difference to Esme's skin. In September Esme's skin was absolutely covered with infected eczema. She looked as if someone had rubbed her skin all over with a grater. Now it is as clear as it has ever been. The effect was very noticable within 3 days. Having said that her skin occasionally deteriorates but a slight increase in steroid strength for a few days brings it quickly back under control. She still gets eczema on her face because of course we cant wet wrap that. Also, at first, her skin was very dry on the bits that stuck out - her shoulders and buttocks - but that's stopped now.

We wet wrapped every night till about a month ago, then we reduced it to two nights out of three. We did try ordinary bandages a few years ago but found that it took 20 minutes to put on and 20 seconds for Esme to pull it all off. This bandage is thicker and hard to tear.

My husband wonders if climactic conditions in other parts of the world might make a difference to wet wraps' effectiveness but it's probably worth a try. It's fairly new in UK but apparently has a high success rate.

Julia, Congratulations on your success with wet wrapping. I have done it a lot on myself. I don't remember how old your daughter is, but if she's past the danger of suffocation, you CAN wet wrap the head. I have done it with the tube stuff ( I cut only a nose hole for breathing; my eyelids and lips need the moist material on them). 

But I found that a bunched up cotton T shirt holds the water better ( I breathe through the bunched-up armhole). Alas, even the T shirt can dry out and I found that I was using the dried cotton to abrade my jaw and neck. That and the amount of time the whole operation takes has caused me to quit for now. (Unfortunately it's so much easier to zap myself with steroids). But I hope to start it again. I once did it every night , head to toe, for 6 months straight. 

My wife has always had a high skin temp, and she does not have excema, my son who has excema does not have a high skin temp.

Hi all, I've been out for a week, a real bad flare, 2 shots of 70 mg Kenolog 40 and 80 mg of Celestone. Not much relief.

Wren, I've used Zyrtec which is an antihistimine like Claritin. It's supposed to make you itch less without drousiness. I haven't seen any noticable results.

I've done John Mcdougal's diet strictly for a year and not so strictly for about 6 months (pizza is the killer). I felt and feel *way better* generally and for that reason have taken on eating that way for life. Skin? I don't think at this moment in time that food is the complete answer.

You know it's funny. I took Cyclosporine for a year. During that time the itching ceased. When I didn't itch, I didn't scratch. It made me reassess all that psychological stuff. Since I've been off of the Cyclosporine, I have less to no tolerance for the constant itching, scratching, hurting cycle. It's driving me crazy.

Kristen, I'm glad my `weak' list of steroids was helpful to you. I stress it was incomplete and if you would like the rest (about ten more) do let me know. 

My face problem is more to do with cracked/scaley skin rather than redness and did not emerge until I was in my 50s, some ten years ago. It does sound as if my problem is not as difficult as yours , so you have my sympathy. 

Kristen , Thank you very much for your suggestion that I should persevere with hypnotherapy. I have been receiving the therapy for nine months now and, incidentally, was seriously considering throwing in the towel. The service is not on the National Health Service and is quite expensive for one retired such as me, so one has to terminate the therapy eventually - it's a question of when it is sensible to do so. I had heard of Grossbart but did not know of his book. I would be grateful if you could let me know his Web address. I am grateful for your encouragement - thank you.

A thought for others: on another tack, having been with this Group only a short time, it occurs to me that it would be helpful when discussing eczema to indicate whether discussion is about the atopic or the allergic type. I understand the two kinds are quite different in many ways - perhaps fundamentally different, I might venture.

I think climatic conditions would have a lot to do with it, but also maybe heating and airconditioning systems do too. My skin has definitely gone down hill since I've been working in an office with closed air conditioning, and I know that when I lived in a temperate climate, my skin was a lot worse during winter when we had dry heaters on. Summer would come and my skin was beautiful - tanned hydrated, soft and lovely. All the tiny patches of eczema I had - I used to get them on the top lip and sometimes on my forehead - would completely disappear. 

I'm sure that the way we lock our places up these days - for security and heating reasons means poorer ventilation which also contributes to dustmite build up and general mustiness. Also apparently the wrong heating doesn't help - gas is drying while electric heating is meant to create positively charged particles in the air which are also bad for skin and lung problems. I bought an air purifier and ionizer not long ago because I thought that it might help my asthma but I can't say that I've noticed a huge difference.

As someone who suffered bad eczema as a baby, keep your hopes up. I grew out of it at 3 and it didn't come back in any significant form until I was 19. I had a great childhood/adolescence and it sounds as though what you're doing with the wet wraps is extremely helpful.

I was going to ask people about Cyclopsorin. When Esme (aged 8) was going through a bad patch our dermotologist seemed keen on Cylcposporine. It seems very drastic to mess about with a child's immune system.

You had asked adults for advice on kids dealing with being teased about eczema. It's certainly a problem. No matter what my parents said in support, I felt awful about the other kids' cruelty. 

The only thing that helped was to develop interests in solitary activities (for me, it was reading) and family activities. One thing that was NOT a good idea was when a well-meaning teacher told a few kids to be my friends. For awhile it was great, and I was so excited about having my first friends outside the family, but soon enough there was some silly argument and the kids said "We never liked you anyway. We were only friends with you because the teacher told us we had to be." That really crushed me and to this day, I have a hard time believing in people's sincere desire to be my friend. 

Of course, it's only to a small degree now (I'm 39) but when I was younger, it was a real problem. I didn't trust anything good that was said about me and always felt highly suspicious of people's intentions and motivations. I knew that people told me nice things to try to make me feel better and I was aware that they often lied. For instance, people would often say "You look beautiful today" when I knew I looked like a leper. So try not to lie, don't create false friendships for her, and in your own interactions with her, show your love as clearly as possible. Give her physical affection as much as possible, do fun things together, and encourage her to find her own interests. Insist that the cruel children are just ignorant and that someday she'll meet better children who will appreciate her the way you do... 

Cyclosporine is mostly used for organ transplant patients. Whatever causes the patient not to reject the foreign organ, stops the itching. Possible kidney problems could develop and I had to take a blood test once a month. My Doc says that long term effects are nil. My opinion is that it is a bit drastic for an 8 year old whose body is still growing. I was at a place where I needed relief period. I would try everything else less drastic first.

I too have problems working in sealed buildings. I feel dry and itchy after a while in my current building. The building before that was a "sick" building, which was sealed and had some sort of toxin in it that made MANY of us sick. Before working in the building I was quite healthy and only had little eczema patches some winters. About a month after starting to work in the building I started itching. With time it progressed into horrible eczema. 

It took me about a year to figure out it was the building. Other people were sick with constant colds and flus, earaches, severe asthma in people who'd never had it before, general irritability, and lack of attention. I did get myself out of the building, but my system was so weakened that I've had this bad eczema now for 3 years. Finally with the CHT it's getting better. As I've maintained, in my case I think the eczema has been caused by a systemic imbalance stemming from toxic poisoning. I agree that stress and family issues can contribute to the intensity of the disease, but feel for me that it has biochemical, not psychological origins. By the way, I work at home whenever possible; I feel fine there.

I developed ezcema about 9 years ago and at that time my face was swollen, burning, red and dreadfully painfull. After a year and after loads of Betnovate I finally managed to force my GP to send me to a specialist. Two of them were not helpful, wanted to use me as a guinea pig, by 'trying out' loads of different oitments, rather than treating the problem or at least attempting to suppress it. 

Finally someone initiated photochemotherapy and a series of corticoid steriod injections, for 3 days a week. For the last year and a half, I haven't gone to the hospital, but still go for UV treatment. Also, the condition improves or is alleviated when I've been working overseas - or whenever I am in the sun for more than a week. Other then that I use Locoid ointment, emulsyfying oitment (all the time) and when I first go in the sun, I use ROC total sunblock cream -factor 15 (on prescription) - after a week or so, I usually don't need it any more. My skin stays clear for about 4 weeks then. I am allergic to cetosteryl alcohol, which prevents the use of many oitments and cream.

I work in an old building that has been remodeled. The building definitely "breathes," but the downside is the venting system which can never be completely cleaned of years of debris. We humans are becoming more and more sensitized to the pollutants in our environment, over most of which we have absolutely no control.

I just read an article titled, How Your Emotions Affect Your Health. John Travis MD and RS Ryan, are coauthors of "Wellness: Small Changes You Can Use to Make a Big Difference" by Ten Speed Press ($7.95). This article discusses how one can acknowledge emotions; it recommends simplifying your life, diet, resting your mind, etc.

It notes that current research in the field of psychoneuroimmunology verifies what folk healers have known for centuries--that thinking and emotions have a direct impact on the strength of the immune system.

Every human being is so incredibly complex, it's absolutely amazing that any of us survive to old age! 

Hi Marian, I emphatically empathize with your experience with facial flaring. It's such an obvious problem that there is no camouflaging it, making it all the more embarrassing. Facial soreness is unspeakably disconcerting to all one's activities, too. I'm just coming off Prednisone for my own facial problem. It seems Vitamin E oil is not the pure oil I supposed, and has made my face continuously reddened as well. So now it's just Crisco, which I'm not terribly pleased with either.

I no longer tolerate sunlight or heat well. It used to be beneficial in my youth, but now it makes my skin blotchy if I am exposed for any length of time. I keep a wide-brimmed cap or hat on in the summer, and stay out of the weather completely it it's humid. I'm also leery of sunblock lotions, just because they are lotions. Hope you are having better luck and can attach yourself to a bonafide dermatologist over the long term. 

How does one differentiate between sunlight and/or heat effects? 

Kris, As you implied, with the sunlight often come heat. However sometimes when I'll take a walk or just sit in the sun on a sunny warm, but not hot (no sweat), day and don't wear a hat and long sleeves, my skin gets itchier. And is irritable the next day.

I do get itchier when I sweat profusely from indoor exercise (when I sweat - I also sweat less now than I used to), but don't think I feel itchier because of the sweating the next day. So all together it seems that I've become sensitive to the sun.

It has now dawned on me that my eyelids start itching when I'm in front of the computer. It doesn't happen at work where I have a screen filter. Maybe this is the obvious answer and that I need one at home, but I would be interested to know if anyone has any comments to make on this. 

My dermatologist asked me if I was interested in getting some tanning exposure to my face since I've had several acute exacerbations to the wrong lotions recently. I'm leery of any kind of sunlight or UV based on past facial miseries. How might one tell if UV or tanning would aid over-sensitized tissues from long-term cortisone over use? 

It has nothing to do with the screen filter. There is no direct way that light from a computer screen could make your eyelids itch. (Do I sound dogmatic?)

Maybe there is some dust in the room at home. Or maybe you are scrunching your eyes closed (called squinting, Ralph) because of the brightness. If so, turn down the brightness control of your screen.

I don't mean to sound cranky, really I don't, but it might drive me insane to see a long exchange about how light from the computer is killing our skin. It's not plausible. There is no ultraviolet, no xrays, no anything harmful. Seriously, if someone thinks I'm way off base on this, tell me. I'll be right here, grumbling into my keyboard.

Does anyone use a hypoallergenic tanning lotion that doesn't bother them? I don't use any suntan lotion now for fear of having an itching allergic reaction.

I went to my Chinese Herb Tea doctor yesterday, and asked her if there were steroids in the tea and if there was any liver damage associated with drinking the tea. She said there were no known steroids in the tea, that it was all plant roots and other plant materials. She did say that future analysis may lead to knowing what active ingredients were in effect, and it was possible they could be steroid-like. In terms of the liver, she said that one's liver couldn't be damaged from drinking the tea.

My homeopathic allergist said that I could start experimenting with fruits. When I asked my CHT doctor what fruits were ok, she said apples, bananas, and watermelon. She said that a long-held Chinese axiom about fruit and skin conditions held true in her experience - people with skin problems should eat fruit with smooth skin to keep their skin smooth. When one eats fruit with bumpy skin, then one's skin will be bumpy (irritated). She specifically warned against eating strawberries, pineapple, and all citrus fruits.

Bananas, here I come.

Summer can be beastly with humidity and heat. I prefer spring and fall, and even winter to the summer generally. Now that I have access to a really nice indoor pool, I like swimming because it's low impact exercise and sweating is negligible! I will continue to swim indoors while everyone else is mostly outdoors for the summer to avoid direct sunlight. Chlorine doesn't seem to bother me at all--it never did when I was kid either. Drying perhaps, but I consider that of no consequence since no real sloughing occurs.

Never ever experiencing much in the way of perspiring the better part of my life changed drastically when menopause hit me full force. And then I seemed to perspire primarily from the waist up, and in particularl from the neck up. I gave up dancing because the facial dripping was too embarrassing while mopping my brow every 2 minutes. Even the least little perspiring in summer makes me feel dirty and irritable, unless there's a good wind going by. So keeping my skin comfortable has definite limitations in the summer. And when it's humid, even one insect landing on me drives me into a frenzy! I'm sure I overreact, but a fly or mosquito that comes remotely close gets zapped or sprayed or squashed in a hurry. Partly, insect whining in my ears can be a trigger!! 

I have had good luck with Shade UVA Guard sunscreen, but I don't know if it is still on the market. My derm dr. said it had the best UVA filter (anti-wrinkles) in it (it is only a 15 so it's not great for burn protection). But I like it because it is unscented and greasy. I went snowboarding last weekend and used some Coppertone Waterbabies 45. I had no trouble with it but I wouldn't use it everyday because of the scent. ( perfume gives my husband migraines). 

I don't appear to be a contact allergic person at this point. I react when the pollen (and maybe some foods)" push their way out to my skin". I think it was you who originally used this descriptive metaphor. That's interesting about the smooth fruit. Unfortunately, I test positive to bananas! I usually get much better when it is extremely hot. I figured it was because the constant sweat moisturized my skin. My allergist said it was because when it is real hot around here there is usually no wind; thus pollen counts drop. She subscribes to the eczema-comes-from-allergen theory rather than the eczema-comes-from-dry-skin theory. 

Ralph, I wasn't suggesting that it was the light - not being at all technical I don't know what kind of emissions there are from a monitor - do any of us know what kind of effect modern gadgetry has on our system?

However, I'll treat this as a flame and go away quietly to scratch my eyelids. <G>

That's very interesting and agrees with my study into the relationship between my itch behind the ears (my primary indicator of a round of eczema) and my recent diet. I have used a neural network to determine the foods likely to trigger my itch and, after about two months worth of food consumption data, orange and pineapple came out as the most likely candidates. I was about to give up on the study but after reading your post I'm going to continue for a few more months to see if these fruits stay at the top of the list. 

As the parent of a seven year old with eczema I am glad to see more people with children who have eczema responding to this list. We all read in the past few months the problems faced by the Krasner's and Nadia's frustration with her skin.

As Nadia & Lyncoln approach their teenage years the physical problems will be compounded by the psychological & emotional problems of puberty. It is during those times that it will be comforting to know there is someone else out there who is dealing with the same problem. My thoughts & prayers are with Jack because with Nadia being the oldest child (so far) in this group he will be the first to have to deal with problems that eventually we will all face.

Kris: I understand how you have suffered because I too had a similar experience. Having severe eczema is bad enough. When your parents have no inkling of your anguish, it is living in hell. I know that my parents were overwhelmed by my condition and that their emotional separation from me was their own psychological coping mechanism, but if they couldn't handle it, they should have gotten someone else to connect with me emotionally instead. 

Usually people are aware if the sun exposure helps them or makes them worse. At Hopkins there's Dr. Morison, who is an expert on photochemotherapy (PUVA), and they treated a lot of patients with eczema with Ultraviolet light and Psoralens. The effect of the light is not related to the cortisone use, but works on the disease itself. It is certainly not for everybody, and some people get worse (usually those that were photosensitive from the start), but it is an effective form of therapy, specially for those individuals in which you have no idea what else to do (which does happen with relative frequency). 

I find all this very difficult. As father of Jonathan, (9 years), I often find it impossible to stop myself getting very VERY tense at his, at times incessant, scratching - his self-desructiveness. If I don't get away from him or distract myself, I end up roughly pulling his hands/feet apart and/or shouting at him to stop which of course just increases his determination to scratch. I worry about the psychological damage I am inflicting. We do have a close relationship apart from this, (I've shared his care at home since he was 3 months old), but it's clear he distances himself after one of my outbursts. I had emotionally absent parents. I was the only one of three off-spring who had eczema. I was 'encouraged' to hide the discomfort. It was not tolerated. I am trying not to repeat the mistakes of my parents but Jonathan's scratching digs deep into my being and tears at me inside.

Ann, I'm not surprised that there are exceptions to the smooth fruit theory. What works for most doesn't necessarily work for all. Have you been bothered by the awful pollen lately? I'm fine, but lots of people in my life are in respiratory misery.

Brenda, I agree with Ralph that light from a computer screen shouldn't be a problem unless adjusting the controls rectifies whatever you are experiencing. On the older monitors, they definitely did emit radiation, which resulted in charging dirt particles ionically so that having a dirty screen was a constant problem. The newer machines have very low emission standards--I believe the Swedish set the standards. But of course there are all kinds of other ergonomic problems created for people who work at computers the better share of their work week. I use shaded lens when I'm at the computer screen, but sitting distance from the monitor, etc., can also be a factor. Get yourself some ergonomic info at the library; you may find some simple solutions to minor irritations that you hadn't really considered. 

Dave: I appreciate your difficulties in dealing with your son, who is reminding you of your own painful childhood. You said that you are close to him at other times, which is very good. I suggest that during those times, you broach the subject of your reactions to his scratching and tell him how hard that is for you, because of your own childhood. 

Reveal as much vulnerability as you can, and ask for his help in working together to communicate and behave better during those difficult times. Ask for his suggestions about what might work better, perhaps starting out answering the questions: When Jonathan scratches, Dave should ......... and When Dave gets tense, Jonathan should......... . Agree on a signal to use when an approach isn't working, even if one just stops and announces THIS ISN'T WORKING. Then you can brainstorm about something else. 

The goal is to stop the automatic reactions on both sides. Your situation is a wonderful opportunity for the two of you to create a bond and a partnership that will bring you closer together. As the adult, you have to initiate the conversations. If you find you have trouble following through with the discussions, then you really need to seek help from a counselor. Try a person with an MFCC license, which stands for marriage and family counseling, because someone experienced with family interactions would be best. 

Wayne: Thanks for your kind words. I greatly appreciate the network for giving me a reflection of myself that I never had. I feel like I was a black child growing up in a white world, never having met another black person. When your identity is based on skin that looks and feels different from everyone else's, it is crucial to self-esteem that you meet others with skin like your own. It wasn't until I spoke with others that I realized how much I had been missing all my life. It has made such a big difference to hear echoes of my pain and sense the compassionate commiseration from the network. Checking in on a daily basis has given me the support that I needed to live with this condition. And I so greatly appreciate the chance to examine my own feelings and attempt to give voice to the unspeakable anguish that has shadowed my entire life. You are the only ones who really understand... 

Dave, I'd like to offer some insights about your relationship with your son, Jonathan. Instead of concentrating on your own feelings, which are memories of your own youthful miseries, why not just go over and HUG your son in the midst of his scratching? Then do hands-on skin care with him to give him some relief. I can understand your own conflicted feelings, watching him repeat your earlier miseries. 

Why not consider getting both you and him into counseling where you can talk about your feelings and his, and air it out in the open? A lot of communication is missing there. Your adverse reaction is really rejection of him, and he takes it as such. He's not itching to drive you up a wall, but you are seeing yourself in him. 

As Grossbart says in his book Skin Deep, parents need to resolve their own emotional conflicts before they can help their child. I can look back now and realize that my mother never admitted she needed counseling, and for me to search for answers in psychology books earned me her scorn. Don't be too proud to get help wherever you can find it. This is the psychological side of eczema that we always think we are too busy to deal with. If you don't deal with it now, it will deal with you and your son into his adulthood. Good luck. 

I've been on Seldane for the last couple of months because I was sneezing a lot. I used to let the hay fever get out of control on purpose because then my eczema would clear up. Now that my skin is so much better, I'd rather deal with it than sinus trouble. The advantage to skin trouble is that I can better see when it is getting out of control or infected and I can clear it up faster (albeit with steroids). The allergy shots have really helped my sinuses too, but I still need medication sometimes. 

Since it has been found that I have become sensitive to almost 'anything' on my face, when I do have problems ie when my face becomes red, blotchy and painful, then I take antihistamine tablets. In England they're called Zirtek (containing 10 mg cetirizine dihydrochloride). Its usual to take one tablet daily, but quite often I take 2 or more. Whenever I need more, the pharmacist always questions me and I have to explain the problem each time. The consultant I am under prescribes this quantity. 

After the red and painful stage, which nowadays lasts about 3-4 days, there is what I call the dry phase. The whole of my face becomes like a peeling snake - a bit leathery as well. It may not look okay to others but I prefer it because from experience I know that in a few days it will be back to normal again - ie smooth. It becomes a bit flaky, so I keep applying the emulsyfying ointment. If I am at home, then I can wash it off with water. As I mentioned before, I cannot use soap or anything else on my face anymore. In fact, up till the age of about 30 I always had smooth skin, looked much younger than my age and didn't need any creams for my skin at all.

Sometimes the skin on my face is photosensitive. When I first go into the sun, it either loves it or it flares up. I can never anticipate what the reaction will be. If I'm overseas (eg in Africa) and it flares up, then it will last for a maximum of about 10 days. After that, it loves the sun and no treatment is necessary. When I return to the UK, the skin stays wonderful for weeks.

As a parent of a 10-year-old girl and a 7-year-old boy, I know how difficult and emotional such confrontations can be, even when there is no illness to complicate things. Incidentally, we just learned *today* from an orthopedist that my daughter has been having severe and increasing pain in her feet and legs for the last year or two.

Although she had complained of this, we had no way of putting her complaints into perspective until now. It can be truly difficult to communicate with children, not least on the subject of illness. The line between body and mind is very fine -- one might say, not drawn at all -- in childhood.

Fortunately my daughter seems quite a popular girl and has lots of friends. The teasing seems to come from children who don't know her too well and although some comments are cruelly meant, others stem from ignorance and fear that the condition is catching.

I don't know if as a family we contribute to her condition. We love her, give her lots of physical attention and fun, and think she's really pretty. Sometimes though we tell her off about things and I know that makes her itchy, as does arguments and asking her to do chores! I don't tell her off for scratching but I can understand it.

I'm very new to the list and have been following several threads with great interest. I thought I should wait a while before joining-in but the note from Wren concerning her Chinese Herb Tea doctor's comment that 'one's liver couldn't be damaged from drinking the tea', worries me. 

The UK National Eczema Society part funded a research programme a few years ago and we were lucky to get one of the doctors involved, Dr. Sheehan, as a speaker at one of our branch public meetings. The thing I most remember (apart from her tremendous enthusiasm for the project) was her insistance that liver function tests should be taken before and during any course of Chinese herbal treatment. The NES has an information sheet on this subject and it may help if I give a very brief synopsis of the study.

Chinese herbs are prescribed on an individual patient basis - a group of patients with atopic eczema would probably all get a different mixture of the 8 to 12 herbs regularly used. Folk tend to think that as herbs are 'natural', they must be safe but this is not necessarily the case. Western medicines are strictly tested for safety before being made available. This not the case with most herbal medicines.

The trials carried out in the UK were done with a fixed formula, the ingredients of which were carefully screened for identity and purity and therefore only given to a group which would be suited by it - those with severe, widespread atopic eczema whose skin was very dry, not infected and not exuding moisture. Before starting treatment, all patients were tested to ensure that their blood, kidneys and liver were healthy. More tests were done during the study.

More than half of those that finished the trial found that their eczema was better with the tea than without it. The main side effects reported were headaches, nausea, stomach bloating and bowel looseness. Things we could suffer if the eczema was eased. The decoction used in the initial study did not seem to have any harmful effects during the first 8 weeks but remember that this study involved a fixed, carefully tested preparation and similar safety claims for other 'mixtures' can not be assumed.

The studies were continued for a further 12 months and it was during this time that two children developed a change in their blood which suggested that the herbal decoction was adversely affecting their liver. (Remember, the decoction had been carefully tested before use.) Upon stopping the treatment their blood tests returned to normal.

The message here is that you must take reasonable precautions when embarking on a course of this treatment. There are reports of at least one person who died and of others who have suffered damage to their liver or kidneys after taking other herbal remedies (not involved with this study of course)

On the plus side, I have a friend who's son got such a massive benefit from the tea that his eczema has all but cleared. He did have tests during the course of treatment and was taken off it once or twice when his blood tests showed a problem.

One final word on Chinese creams or ointments. These can sometimes contain potent steroids which are impure. Please do not use any such unless it is properly labelled with a full list of ingredients. In the UK it is illegal for anyone to prescribe creams containing potent steroids unless they are medically qualified. I have to plead ignorance of the legislation regarding this elsewhere in the world.

Good thoughts, which I will act on. My natural reaction is, as I said, to try and avoid what is going on for him because it 'presses buttons' from the past. However I feel guilty if leave him to his scratching. I therefore try and stay close - putting myself through the pain. Actually concentrating totally on him will be more positive.

However, I summarised. Afterwards I often (to say I always do would be a lie) initiate peacemaking where I apologise for losing my cool. 

I hate it that he feels the need to (very transparently from my perspective) hide the fact that he's scratching. I know it's much better for his eczema, his skin, his scratching even, to be accepted as part of him. If I can't accept that then why should others, and if he's not accepted at home, he's going to find it hard to be accepted or *acceptable* anywhere. (there's more of my stuff coming out here again! :-O ). 

The problem is that it is very often the having of children that provides the insights into the emotional conflicts rooted in one's own childhood, that one needs to resolve so that one can 'successfully' bring up one's children. We're not allowed a practice run are we. :-(

Alan, I was most interested to read your post on CHT, as possible liver damage is the main reason why I put up with a moderate degree of eczema before seeking this treatment, which I know is effective.

In my own case a fairly short course of treatment will remove the eczema. Does the study you refer to indicate the length of time the treatment could be considered *safe*? Also, it appears to suggest that any damage is not irreversible. Have you heard of cases where the liver or kidneys have been permanently damaged?

The question of *controls* appears to be an important one. Western drugs are so strictly controlled it concerns me considerably to find the Chinese herbs curing in the herbalist's garden with traffic pouring by on the other side of the fence. This quite aside from the consideration that the ingredients of the tea are a total mystery. We seem to suffer from an excess of controls for our own good but perhaps in this case it is up to us to ask our local law-makers to ensure that goods offered for sale are not in fact harmful. 

Alan, I appreciate your post, as it adds some perspective to the rather confusing topic of Chinese Herbal Tea. I say "confusing" because I too am troubled by the lack of standardization. Potent medications can always cause side effects, and the very fact that the CHT is effective says that it contains something with definite pharmacological effects. Is there a list of ingredients that you (or someone) could supply, along with a discussion of their actions?

Thank you, Alan, for the very informative presentation that you gave on CHT. It's hard for me to believe that if the stuff is truly more effective and is safer than steroids, that some doctor or some drug company hasn't, by this time, started marketing it. I know that I myself would gladly pay a LOT more for something safe than what I presently shell out for toxic medicines. I sure hope that it does turn out to be THE CURE, and that people like Wayne, who are in carefully controlled studies, are the first to benefit. But in the meantime, be careful everybody! 

Brenda, Taking the points raised in your message in order - No, there has as yet been no determination of a 'safe' period of treatment. The trials are still in progress with the original decoction and it is felt that only a long-term study will fully determine safe limits. The current recommendation is that anyone taking the treatment should be closely monitored by their doctor. Bear in mind that this recommendation is made specifically with regard to a 'mixture' which has been carefully checked. It must follow that it is even more important to take special care when trying 'unregulated' potions.

The question of reversible damage is still open but it is true that patients taking the controlled dose who developed blood abnormalities were OK once taken off the treatment programme. It is not clear what effect a long-term on-off treatment regime would have. I don't have hard facts regarding organ damage, only the line in the NES information sheet which states "One person died after taking different Chinese medicinal herbs for eczema. More people have suffered damage to their liver or kidneys after taking other herbal remedies."

I recall one of the questions asked of Dr Sheehan at our meeting. 'If the herbs are so good, why don't we grow them here ?' (This was asked as the doctor said that all materials used in the trials had been imported from China) The answer was that many of the plants are indigenous to China and to replicate growing conditions in the UK would not be cost effective, even on a commercial scale. I never pick berries from roadside locations here because it is well known that there is a danger of absorption of 'traffic gunk', so your point is a very good one as is your comment about the ingredients themselves.

My own feeling is that taken in conjunction with good conventional medical back-up (for your own safety), very positive benefits can be had from CHT. But - and its a BIG but, you must choose your CHT supplier with care and bear in mind that the treatment does not necessarily suit all forms of eczema and that you must desist at the first sign of a problem.

Marian, I'm a little curious why you aren't avoiding any and all sunlight on your face with hats, sunblock, etc. I don't know what your history is with medications, but cortisone overuse will make you supersensitive to absolutely every commercial preparation that's made. The only "pure" emulsifying agent I know of, because I'm oversensitized due to cortisone overuse, is Crisco. It's not entirely satisfactory, and I still have some hopes for plain white petrolatum, but it's too easy to use lotions on one's face without thinking about adverse reactions. I've done it so many times, I can't believe it's taken me so long to smarten up. Sounds like you may want to consider a very carefully documented program of trying and eliminating whatever it is you are using on your face, including exposure via PUVA or whatever to sunlight. Or possibly some allergic tests for all the stuff you may be using. 

You sound quite perceptive as a parent, because of your own history, and with more empathy than some. I have problems with parents who are only interested in how attractive or pretty their AD child is, as if that's the main problem with eczema.

So you aren't a parent who is starting from zero base. You are so right about acceptance. Your son is lucky you are his parent.

Generally speaking, it is not nice to affix blame to our parents. In fact, it is quite unacceptable socially. I had to face that truth or never get past hating myself. The Bible, if you are religious, only admonishes us to honor parents--not love them. So you see, it's not an obligation if the feeling isn't or wasn't ever there. Some parents only invest in dutiful tasks required for their offspring--nothing more.

Dave, the fact that you dared to tell us on the List how you really felt makes me think you are probably one of the exceptional parents who really care, and don't just view your AD child as another burden. So I admire your honesty and forthrightness and commend you for trying to help you and your son. I wish you both all the best. 

It's not unusual not to hit it off with every counselor. Keep looking till you find one who is on the same wavelength and who appreciates your situation. We are all unique. I've only found a few dermatologists/counselors in 35 years who I could relate to well at all. But you can't give up.

I hope you'll stay in touch and let us know periodically how life progresses with you and Jonathan. It's always a slow course and will no doubt feel like progress is lightyears away, but we can only see our progress in retrospect. It took me 20 and 30 years to discern facts about my family history that had been clues all my life. We don't always see what we aren't ready to deal with. Sometimes truths will pop into your mind, as you slowly examine your own beginnings and conflicted feelings, when you least expect it. You will have no real proof, but you will know when you have the right answers. It can be nothing more than gut feeling. I have always trusted my gut instincts, and have had no cause for any regrets on that score. Whatever you find out about yourself will benefit Jonathan. Again, much luck in your quest. 

Marian, I noted with interest that you are using Zirtek to treat the eczema on your face. Can you please confirm my assumption that this antihistamine is unlikely to be able to deal with atopic eczema (face, hands, neck etc) Many thanks.

Here's Grossbart's virtual home address:

http://grossbart.com/

Has anybody out there tried homeopathy treatment on children? and if so what was the outcome? Was it successful or not? Also what type of treatment was given?

I know that Western medicine often only treats symptoms. My lifelong use of steroids has repressed, rather than fixed, my immune system . Allergy shots get closer to removing the CAUSE of the eczema by decreasing one's sensitivity to the allergens. Until I read Wren's explanation, I assumed that the CHT completely eradicated the allergy. But people in the trials still had asthma, which implies that the allergy was still there and that the CHT works directly on the skin! I don't think the CAUSE of my eczema is in my skin ( as I'm sure you are all tired of hearing); it's in my immune system. Until I started allergy shots, good skin years were bad sinus years; there was a shift from skin to sinus as to the site of the allergic reaction. So I wonder if a remedy like CHT which seems to zap the skin rather than the immune system would just switch the allergy site to the respiratory system? 

A question I have been meaning to ask everyone is: Are any of you not allergic to anything (i.e. you just have a dry skin rash but no hives or other allergic symptoms and you test negative on all allergy tests)? It seems like this type of person would be the best candidate for CHT: the cause of their eczema is in the skin. Those of us whose cause is located in the immune system should stick with allergy shots? 

Have people (like me) who are allergic to all plants been successfully treated with CHT?

Those of you who have had success with CHT, is your skin completely clear or just better than it was before treatment?

Chinese herbalists appear to presribe according to your general physical condition (interior rather than exterior). If it were working only on the skin, then presumably the same prescription would be given each time, but this is not the case.

My skin becomes completely clear, but the problems do recur after about a year. It does, however, seem impossible to generalise as eczema is such a complex complaint. I have to agree fervently with earlier posts that Western medicine treats only the symptoms - at the least the CHT is trying to get at the cause. 

Ann, your last posting on May 10, asked about those who have taken CHT, is their skin "completely clear" or just better before treatment. For me answer is latter. Better than before treatment. At best for me (90+/100) my skin does not have any *visible* lesions but can still feel dry and rough in certain areas of my body. My skin has never felt smooth as silk and itchless. 

The CHT formula I am taking is not for all forms of AD. The derm clinic at the WHC is using *pretty much* the same formula used in the UK (Dr Sheehan, et al). This formula is designed for AD that is chronic, "non-exudative dermatitis with dry, thickened skin" (Dermatology Focus). 

Brenda, in addition to what you said about the CHT being prescribed on an individual basis, I'd like to say that the CHT formula may vary in proportions and content during the course of treatment. So, as skin progresses what is taken changes. Given knowledge of how CHT is traditionally dispensed, I am cautious of the CHT formula I am taking from the WHC because the only variance in my treatment is amount and time (how often) of a formula that does not change. 

My daughter is not exactly a 'child' anymore (18yrs) but she was referred, on request to our GP, to the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital in London a couple of years ago having been along the usual steroids etc route.

While I can't (regrettably) claim for her a miracle cure, I can vouch strongly for the care and consideration that she received. The doctors treat the whole person and spent a long time questioning her about family, attitudes, feelings and life perspectives in general and she certainly got real benefit from her treatment and some ease of symptoms. I was surprised but pleased to note that there was no rejection of the use of conventional medicine when taking homeopathic treatment - at least in her case. I had supposed that it would be a sort of all or nothing approach and I was very wrong. Her doctor saw nothing wrong in her continuing to use, for example, hydrocortisone creams and emolients.

I don't know how old your child is so the approach used may well be different. I can only restate that I was very impressed with the care that my child received.

Ann, I bought the Shade UVA Guard sunscreen you recommended, only I got the SPF 45 instead of the SPF 15. I was pleased to find that it didn't make me itch at all, and I wasn't irritated by the sun at all either. It was a short test, as I was only out for about 1 hour total, but still it seems to be a good product.

Hello, I use hypo-allergenique (sans parfum) of ROC - maximum protection factor over 15. It contains l'oxybenzone vit. E acetate 2%. For me, it works very well. 

We have tried making modifications to our son's diet and environment. We have taken him off of eggs and milk, we have changed his detergent and bedding (to 100% cotton whites) and have cleaned the house of molds on the walls. But no real effect has been noticed. He eczema continues to have its ups and downs. On the whole he is worse. The cortisone ointment is the only thing that helps, and even it seems to only help marginally now where before it worked wonders. Right now we are at a loss as to what to try next.

Ann asked about relationships between cause and effect. I would like to respond with the following night thoughts:

What is allergy? Simple: Any inappropriate response to innocuous foreign substances.

If the effector site is the skin, we call it dermatitis because the word means "inflammation" [-itis] of the skin [derma-]. Fine, we can now introduce the confounding variable: We need to distinguish between "appropriate" and "inappropriate" responses. For example, if the palm of my hand gets infected from a dirty scratch, inflammation sets in to wall off spreading germs. This is a dermatitis but is certainly not an allergic reaction because here inflammation (and other changes in tissue and fluid shift) are absolutely appropriate and, what's more, bacteria that infect my hand are certainly not innocuous. Summing it up, two key words glare at us: "inappropriate" and "innocuous." Both of these glaring words take on a new meaning for people with eczema which is an old-fashioned term for "allergic" dermatitis.

New meaning, I say, because definitions per se describe "expected" events based on predictions gleaned from observing the "norm." If a particular brand or formulation of soap causes my skin to "break out," and if this soap sells like hot cakes and makes tons of money for P&G, it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of people simply do not "react" to brand X soap, hence its popularity. In this scenario, I am the exception and under these circumstances, my reaction is "inappropriate" and Brand X should be considered an "innocuous" substance.

Obviously, consensus building is an inclusive event which gains its authority from the law of large numbers. Any consensus so built, is built on the backs of those who don't "fit" within the wide parameters of the norm.

Notice that EVERYTHING I've said so far is based on the fact that whether a tissue (or organ such as the skin) responds appropriately or inappropriately to a substance, whether such a response is by consensus toxic or innocuous, the "fact" of the response is merely the evidence of the immune system trying to deal its deck.

Not all immune responses belong to the norm of consensus! Allergy is one of the major examples where the immune system "misinterprets" with punishing results: Here the innocent bystander (Brand X) is actually perceived to be the messenger and, what's more, the immune system tries to "kill" the messenger!

And, to muddy the waters or just make matters worse, allergy is just one of the ways the immune system can become an unjust punisher. How about "autoimmune diseases" and "graft rejection," just to name a couple other big categories? Now, if we go back to the simple definition of allergy above, we can see that "autoimmune" disease and "graft rejection" involve what's perceived by the immune system to be "foreign" (in autoimmune conditions, the immune system interprets our own tissues as though they were foreign antigen or allergen; in "graft rejection," the immune system is just trying to protect the body's tissues by recognizing the graft as the alien matter it really is).

Why am I going on like this? Because we forget that the immune system is the Mac truck that drives and delivers the cargo. We get - quite understandably! -- so involved with the cargo, the product, the effector site (spin the metaphor further, if you want) that we tangle up with our understanding of cause and effect.

Unfortunately, when it comes to allergy (eczema, atopia, the atopic state, asthma, rhinitis, psoriasis, etc.) we can at best treat the product, what Ann calls the symptom. But, let's remember, here the symptom is the disease as far as we're concerned. The product is the only part of the whole kit which seems to offend. In other words, the immune system makes the mistakes we've talked about here, but it also doesn't go further. We might say, our immune system is mistaken but it's not a monster devouring the sum of us [contrast this with another type of inappropriate immune response called Stevens-Johnson Syndrom!] So, why don't we also have cardiac, liver, kidney, or brain disease? What is it then about skin (AND, mucus membranes, viz. Asthma and rhinitis) that specifies (and delimits?) the outlaw behavior of the immune system?

Well, for beginners, we're discussing allergy which is an operatively defined term: The mechanisms at play in this order of the game are the two components of the immune system (cellular and humoral) and associated cells (such as mast cells under the skin and mucus linings of the bronchia). We don't talk about kidney allergy. On the other hand, if we're talking about autoimmune symptoms we might very well be talking about the kidneys.

Ann's questions also contain some of the answers when queried. My little diatribe here is another primer intended to remind us that we need to think of the basics. In fact, isn't it a real shame that it's exactly here, in the area of basic science (viz. Immunobiology) where we're trying to get a grasp on causation so that we might, some day (soon?) be able to intervene in the immune system's messenger behavior. When that time comes, we'll probably be able to interrupt false messages and prevent such misinformation with all its mischief. Then, we would be able to nip so-called allergy in the bud - simply preventing it altogether. Preventing the symptoms eliminates the disease. The immune system's genetically induced blind spot would be cleared for the purposes of our interests.

I've tested positive to all kinds of things, dustmites, cats, pollen, ragweek, etc., numerous times over the years. My exacerbations over the years would be body not face or vice versa tons of times. I don't keep anything but fake plants and flowers in my house. 

I too tried homeopathy, and will second Alan's daughter's experience of being thoroughly questioned about symptoms, emotions, and environment; I felt truly cared for as well. I tried two courses of homeopathy with very different homeopathists. The first lasted 6-9 months. I took one specific remedy, based on my symptoms, according to traditional homeopathic methods. At first I got somewhat better, then started to backslide for no apparent reason. I tried a second remedy, but it didn't work as well as the first.

The second homeopathist, who I still see, is not a traditionalist, and believes in mixing remedies and combinations of therapies to find what works best. Traditional homeopathy holds that one must try a single remedy, not combined with any other medical treatment. If that remedy doesn't work after a fairly long (2-3 months?) test period, then another can be tried.

My current homeopathist had me completely change my diet in addition to taking 3 remedies, cleansing drops, and a mountain of pills each day. I also used a homeopathic ointment for skin healing and castor oil for moisturizing. It helped me some; over time I was slowly getting a bit better.

I'm surprised, Alan, that your daughter's homeopathist was so open to her using cortisone. Both of my homeopathists discouraged, but did not forbid me from using it.

Thanks very much for your replies regarding homeopathy.

I am currently using homeopathy treatment on my 1 1/2 year old son ( from a reputable homeopath ) but at the back of my mind I wonder if there are any long term side effects from using it.

We all know the effects of long term usage of any cortisone based creams, and lately recent studies have indicated a possible link between chinese herbal medicines and liver damage.

I wonder (out of desperation) if there is any safe treatment for eczema?

I too have had other allergies in my life. I've been (and still am to a small degree I guess) allergic to dust, feathers, fur, mold, and peanut butter. My homeopathic allergist thinks I'm allergic to milk products, wheat, and gluten. I honestly don't know about those.

The recipe for the CHT can't be published because, at least according my doctor, it varies for every person and their specific situation at the time the herbs are dispensed. My doctor looks at my tongue, takes my pulse (which is about four points on each wrist in Chinese medicine), looks at my skin, and asks me about my symptoms. Only then can she decide which herbs I need and the proportions she needs to weigh out. My recipe has changed each visit. This is definitely something one SHOULD NOT do for oneself. As we've discussed before, herbs are powerful medicines that should be prescribed and dispensed by experienced, licensed professionals. Just like cortisone, or other potent medications.

I have never heard of any long term effects from using homeopathy. Think you'd have to do some library research to answer your question. Sometimes my symptoms would flare right after taking a remedy, which was expected. But after the flaring subsided, the condition either stayed the same or did improve slightly.

I am currently using homeopathy treatment on my 1 1/2 year old son ( from a reputable homeopath ) but at the back of my mind I wonder if there are any long term side effects from using it.

With monitoring you wouldn't have to wonder if the CHT was safe or not. Many many more people have had no ill effects from the CHT than have had problems. Dr. Sheehan's original study on children showed no impaired function for any of the children taking the CHT in the short term trial, and just two out of 23 in a year long trial. Liver function was fully regained in those children after stopping the CHT treatment. 

The effects of long term cortisone use are known, as you pointed out.

I have been tested and came out positive on most everything....however, everything does not cause a problem. If I eat peanuts in quantity, I will always break out, even if my skin is fine, and, it will set me off for quite some time.

I remember reading a while ago, somewhere, that people with eczema have messed up livers, not because of steroid use, but just as a symptom of the atopic condition . (I know that my own liver enzymes aren't what they should be.) So maybe the reported liver problems with CHT as well as with steroids aren't due to the drugs at all. Maybe, if that's the case, we should use MORE steroids and herbs to keep the eczema under control and thereby hold the liver together? This is , I know a flakey theory as I'm sure it's been established that steroids DO cause the liver damage. But I do think that eczema , because it is a systemic reaction (vs. respiratory on-the spot reactions), could involve effects on other organs.

I've never ever read that anywhere, Ann. Do you have more statistics? Especially about steroid use. I've used it topically for over 30 years so I am curious just what the actual absorption is. I've had bursts of the pills at different times for acute exacerbations, and I know we are at risk for liver and kidney as well as bone problems down the road. But I've never been invited by any physician to find out actual status of those organs; probably prohibitively expensive, and anyway, what would I do about it if I knew the answers, right? 

In my case, I have a liver condition which is a viral infection....using steroids suppresses the immune system, therefore the virus is not fought off, resulting in liver damage. I know that this may not be the reason that those with a healthy liver would potentially suffer damage, but it might also be the mechanism for similar events occuring....it could be the same reason that people using steroids are prone to infections.

I get UVB treatments...I used to get PUVA treatments. I have found in my case that getting them in bunches, for instance, over 3 consecutive days, to the point where my skin gets burnt, helps most of the time...I itch a lot for a while but I seem to end up better than when I started. Getting such treatments every other day or twice per week does not have anywhere near the positive effect of consecutive treatment (than stopping). Also, going to a beach and lying in the sun for a long period of time has a similar effect, and, works some times even better than the light box (salt water and relaxation are 2 addl factors). Alas, this does not work all the time and there are periods where this type of treatment has no impact or a negative impact.

A comment about having high levels of heavy metals triggered a thought. I have been diagnosed with high concentrations of lead. Anyone else have this kind of stuff?

I have been found to have high levels of gold in my blood. I have never received gold therapy (as in arthritis treartment). My dermatologist found it. I have had severe atopic dermatitis for 2 years. ( I also had it 12 years ago). I am again being treated with steroids after a hospitalization. 

Karen, that is most interesting. Do you have any idea how you might have gotten high levels of gold? You don't drink any of those gold-containing liquors or eat gold-wrapped candy, do you? Could you have absorbed gold from earrings, or fillings in your teeth, or anything like that?

Are you sure the lab study was accurate?

I read a couple of years ago that the active ingredient in most of these TCM (Trad. Chinese Med.) decoctions as determined by extensive lab analysis is a naturally occuring steroid called paenol. Researchers have suggested that much more analysis should be done to find out just how effective it is, and to see if the side-effects typical of steroids manifest themselves with prolonged use of this drug. The series of articles were in the Lancet journal if anyone is interested in reading about it.

Karen, I don't know why I have high levels of lead. I do work in manufacturing and might have picked lead up there. The only other thing I can think of, is I used to put those soft medicine tubes in my mouth. Does anyone know if those soft metal tubes are made of lead?

I have had some form of eczema all of my life, and I have recently discovered the dietary "magic bullet." As a result of eating certain foods and supplements, I'm about 90% better with only about 10% to go. 

Here is the only Paenol reference I was able to find by doing an AltaVista search:

Isolation of Paenol from Arisaema Erubescens", S. Ducki, J. A. Hadfield, N. J. Lawrence, X. Zhang and A. T. McGown, Planta Medica, 1995, 61, 586.

Anyone have access to the journal "Planta Medica"?

I dug into my file cabinet full of eczema related info & found some other interesting articles from the Lancet (a British dermatology journal), but not the ones related to the identification of the drug paenol in the TCM. I'll go to the library in next couple of days & track it down. 

In the meantime, I found a copy of an interesting study done on TCM in London. Its in the Lancet vol 340 July 4, 1992 page 13 if anyone's interested. In at nutshell, they concluded that TCM, (they called it TCHT for Traditonal Chinese Herbal Therapy) "affords substantial clincal benefit in patients whose atopic dermatitis was unresponsive to convential therapy", but they also strongly recommended that hepatic and renal testing should be done during treatment. In one follow up letter to the article in the July 21st edition, one doctor related a story of a girl who improved using the TCM, but also developed liver toxicity. 

The article itself made mention of another girl whose hepatitis may have been related to the TCM. In the July 4 article the authors said that some of the herbs used have anti-inflammatory properties, some have anti-microbial action, some have sedative effects and one had anti-immunosuppresive properties. Another follow-up letter from two doctors at the Department of Dermatology in the Queen's Medical Center in Nottingham said they've done analysis of TCM components and although they couldn't identify it, they believed it contained a corticosteroid. 

If a steroid is indeed partially responsible for the improvements seen in TCM patients, I'm not sure I'd be anymore comfortable using that method of treatment than using prednisone. These are things to be aware of if anyone is interested in trying TCM. I'll try to dig out the citation for the article about the identification of paenol in the next couple of days. If anyone is in a hurry, I believe the title was something to do with "Mass-Spectography analysis of Traditional Chinese Herbal Therapy".

Hi Chuck, I'm very interested in hearing more about your dietary "magic bullet". And what kind of eczema have you had most of your life? 

Wren, You've mentioned using castor oil for an emollient. What ingredients are in castor oil? Is it a pure substance or mixed with other "stuff"? 

Castor oil is pressed from the castor bean, which comes from the castor-oil plant, Ricinus communis. According to the American Heritage dictionary, this plant "is native to tropical Africa and Asia, grown for ornament and for the commercial extraction of castor oil from its poisonous seeds." The oil itself is not poisonous, and has been effective for me, but some may find it irritating, of course. I buy Home Health's cold pressed cold processed oil.

Thanks for the questions about the "magic bullet." I have eczema or as its now called, atopic dermatitis. It stems from both pollen allergies and primarily food allergies. The following is a summary of the diet and supplements I've been taking for the past 8 months with great success. Before I started this program, I was covered with rash virtually from head to toe. Now I have a little rash from time to time on my neck and shoulders and my forehead, and sometimes I'm completely clear, especially if I stay away from my two problem foods--wheat and dairy.

There are a few different causes of food allergies that result in eczema. The first is leaky gut syndrome, which is caused by Candida (a fungus that grows from yeast that you eat). The Candida bores little holes in the intestine through which large particles of food can pass. The body sees these undigested particles as invaders and triggers an allergic response. Killing the Candida and replacing it with Lactobacillus stops the leaky gut. Extra hydrochloric acid with enzymes also helps ensure that food is thoroughly digested. People food allergies should take a Candida killer such as concentrate garlic or Capryllic acid, Lactobacillus, and extra HCL with enzymes at every meal.

Second, the body makes hormones, such as the steroids which keep allergic reactions in check, from essential fatty acids. Three different EFAs are needed in order to make all of the hormones: linoleic acid, linolenic acid, and arachodonic acid. The first two are found in flax oil, the third in wheat germ oil. I tried flax oil alone with moderate success, but took a big leap forward when I added the wheat germ oil.

Next, the body uses amino acids to make the enzymes that make food digestion possible. The full complement of proteins must be available in the diet or some enzymes cannot be produced. If any enzymes are missing, the foods that would normally be digested cannot be digested. Undigested foods rot in the intestine, and the body perceives them as invaders, causing an allergic response. To ensure that all digestive enzymes can be manufactured in the body, you have to eat proteins that have all the amino acids. These can be acquired either by eating combinations of protein foods (I don't know yet which ones), or by eating fertilized eggs with the yolks still soft. The only single food with all the amino acids is the fertilized egg, but cooking the yoke hard destroys some of them, so the yolk has to be soft.

The last couple of items are beta carotene or multiple carotenoids and vitamin C. These are crucial for good immune function. Studies have shown that lack of carotenes from a diet inadequate in consumption of red, orange, and green vegetables (broccoli, carrots, squash, red lettuce, spinach, etc.) causes a serious decline in immune function. You need to eat your fruits and veggies. In addition to bolster any deficiency, take 25,000 to 50,000 units a day of carotene and 1000 to 3000 mg of C three times a day.

In addition to the above nutrients, there are other things that help, such as zinc (15 mg daily), selenium, CoQ10, chromium, and others. These all have different functions which aid the immune system. A good multivitamin should supply these needs.

Besides proper nutrients, you need to identify and avoid foods you are allergic to. One way to do this is by keeping a diary of what you eat and when you have reactions. Then avoid the likely allergens as you discover them. Another way is kinesiology or muscle testing. This is described, together with lots of great nutritional information, in a book entitled, The Ultimate Healing System, by Donald Lepore N.D.

One last note on vitamins: natural is better than synthetic. The recent studies that supposedly discredited beta carotene's effectiveness against cancer were done using synthetic carotene. (No wonder it failed.) It's the natural vitamins that really do the job. Note though, that it's practically impossible to find natural C. I reluctantly use synthetic C and it seems to work OK. A couple of good vitamin brands are Solgar (cheap and mostly natural) and NeoLife (expensive but all natural). I've also heard that TwinLab is good but I think they use mostly synthetics.

I had determined long ago that my eczema got better when I went on a rotary diversified diet (straight elimination diets didn't seem to help much). So I figured food allergies were playing a part. Last year I spent $900 on food allergy test through a clinic in Florida. They tested for Candida as part of those tests. The results showed that I had allergies to numerous foods, with a particularly bad allery to candida. One doctor told me he believed that my frequent use of antibiotics had allowed yeast (candida) overgrowth to occur in the past which resulted in a heightened sensitivity to candida.

About three weeks after starting to take a caprylic acid supplement I saw dramatic improvement in my eczema. I added evening primrose oil and a non-allergenic multivitamin and 90% of my symptoms disappeared. I also take acidophillus. I guess I should add that like Chuck, I was a mess. Its pretty wonderful now to feel mostly "normal".

I still have to avoid eggs. I test out with a high allergy to them. But I can get away with eating most other things since I began taking the supplements.

I might add that I do better when I exersise regularly, but I believe the caprylic acid and Evening Primrose Oil are the biggest factors in my improvement. I've since discovered that many doctors and dermatologists are beginning to clue into the role of fungal antigens in skin diseases. I'll try to supply this list with some of the literature I've come across recently on the subject. I do realize that everyone's eczema is a little different, but for those who've had no success with other programs, this is sure worth a try. I haven't had to use any antibiotics or steroids now for about 9 months.

My dermatologist has started prescribing anti-fungal medication whenever he gives me antibiotics (about once every six months at present). He mentioned candida overgrowth as one reason for doing so. From your message, I think I now understand some of the reasons for that.

I think we've heard about Evening Primrose Oil in the past, but what is caprylic acid?

I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about dietary cures, but this is very interesting material, Brent. Could you describe your diet in more detail?

I forgot a few things in my explanation of what has helped me.

1. Be sure to drink lots of water. I found that my own sweat was very toxic and every time I exercised, my rash got worse. Drinking lots of water helped.

2. I want to give credit where it is due. I didn't start to get well until my family and I began to pray fervently. As a Christian, I believe the Lord led me to the information that is healing me.

Ralph, you and others on this list might be interested in these excerpts of a handout that an M.D. in Madison WI sent me: ...After the use of antibiotics, the yeast grow to fill in the space left by the removal of the bacteria....Yeast make a number of chemical compounds which are mildly toxic to most people....Candida causes skin problems in this way. The body's immune system is unable to clear Candida from the intestinal tract due to inflammation in the intestinal tract...Then the body goes after the yeast in other places such as the skin. This immune response also results in an inflammation which on the skin we call psoriasis, or if the inflammation is milder, we call it eczema. Because the immune system cannot clear the yeast, problems such as eczema and psoriasis tend to be chronic. This doctor believes most eczema is caused in this way. He prescribes long-term anti-fungals, and asks patients to stick to a fairly strict diet that doesn't promote yeast growth. I've also found info from world-leading dermatologists suggesting that fungal problems are at the root of many eczema situations. I'll see if I can dig out more info in the next couple of days

Caprylic Acid is a naturally occurring substance found in coconuts (if I'm remembering correctly). It either kills the yeast in your intestine or makes it environment inhospitable for it. You can buy it over the counter in a few different forms. It basically accomplishes the same thing as the drug nystatin. But nystatin seems to have more side-effects.

Actually, since I've gotten better, I've haven't done much with the diet. I seem to be able to get away with eating most things. Eggs seem to really bother me though. Previously, I had pretty good luck with a rotary diet, where, I would rotate foods in four day intervals and avoid all the classical allergenic foods. The theory on the rotation, is that your body doesn't have time to build up a response to any one food. The diet ended up being pretty heavy in non-yeast promoting foods too, although at the time, I hadn't made the connection. Actually, I totally cleared up (100%) on the diet after about four weeks, but its a horrible diet to live with. You have to meticulously plan every meal well in advance and eating out is out of the question. I always lost a lot of weight on the diet but I felt terrific and my blood profiles came back fantastic. Too bad I don't have the will-power or I might continue it. My symptoms always returned within a couple of months of going off the diet and my symptoms were pretty bad. In any case, I'm doing well on the caprylic acid and EPO.

My dietary knowledge is rather scanty. Can you tell me what foods are yeast-promoting? I presume it's nothing as obvious as foods with yeast in them.

Although your post concerned internal fungal antigens, I was interested on a very recent visit to a G.P. for what appeared to be a standard eczema outbreak, that he immediately prescribed an anti-fungal cream, which to me was quite a novelty. When the eczema disappeared after 3 days I wondered how many previous outbreaks could have been dealt with in this way. Although I'm somewhat naive about eczema and its treatment, I'm not suggesting that it is generally caused by fungal infections, but it was an approach that I just hadn't struck before and seemed to tie in with your comments about candida etc. 

For a while I was using an anti-fungal cream. At first it seemed to be helpful, but after a while it stopped helping. My dermatologist prescribes oral anti-fungal medicine whenever he gives me oral antibiotics.

I'm personally confused about the role of candida and/or other fungal infections in eczema. As far as I can tell, there is a contribution by these agents, but they are not the sole cause.

Yeast-promoting food: Mainly simple sugars. That includes fruit. The literature also says to stay away from alcholic beverages, non-alcholic beer, vinegar, barley malt, chocolate pickles and aged cheese. I really think the reason I did well with the diet is because I consumed very little processed food that contained added sugar. I also stayed away from most fruits. I ate lots of veggies and rotated them around. At the time I believed I was avoiding building up an intolerance to the different foods, but with the latest info I've been reading and the results from my allergy tests, I'm more inclined to believe it was the reduction in yeast as a result of the diet that improved the eczema.

Its been a real surprise to me. After years of steroids and antibiotics, I'm finally able to function normally. (I'm not cured, but I'm a LOT better.) Following is an article that appeared on a dermatology list in October, 1994. This came from a dermatologist in Seattle:

"One item that comes to mind is something I had difficulty convincing people in Zurich last month that it really exists! I am absolutely convinced that a significant number of people with chronic urticaria or persistant erythema such as erythema annulare centifugum, are in fact hypersensitivity reactions to a fungal antigen. These people should be investigated from that standpoint and even when an occult infection is not found, given a trial of systemic antifungal therapy. We are missing a lot of these people."

Do we have any M.D.s or dermatologists on this list who could give us their opinion about this subject? Do yeasts and fungals really have that much of an impact on eczema and other skin diseases from their experience? Or are Chuck and I (and maybe Brenda) unique?

I suspect you are right Ralph. I don't think these microbes are the sole cause or else we would see people cured when they go on the anti-fungal yeast programs. But, I'm seeing a lot of info where at least some people are dramatically improving on those programs. I really don't mean to sound like I'm on a crusade, but my own dermatologists seemed to have no knowledge of this. Yet I'm reading where many leading dermatologists and researchers are finding a significant role is played by yeast and fungus in exacerbating the problems of skin disease. 

For those of you who are interested, Dr. Rosenburg in Tennessee has published info about using Nizoral shampoo for eczematous problems. (Nizoral is an anti-fungal if I'm not mistaken). Drs Shelley and Shelley have published individual reports on the use of antifungals and antibiotics for such treatments (sorry, I don't have citations readily available). From my readings on the dermatology list the last couple of years many dermatologists have begun prescribing sporonox (an antifungal) and have been having good success in treating various skin problems such as eczema and psoriasis. 

I would be a little careful about attributing all of the effects of certain antifungal medications to their antifungal spectrum of activity. For example, Ketoconazole (Nizoral) is often used topically as well as orally to control various fungal infections; however, it is thought that ketoconazole has antiinflammatory effects and is mildly antibacterial. This may or may not be true for some of the other antifungal drugs.

What specific medications are we talking about?

After many years of a skin condition getting progressively worse, and a string of dermatologists who were unable to come up with a diagnosis, let alone a cure (heck, not one of them ever even mentioned "eczema"), it was finally diagnosed by an environmental MD who I went to for a general checkup (I didn't go to her specifically for the eczema). Since her original specialty was pediatrics, she recognized it right away, since she said it's a common allergic reaction to milk protein in children.

FWIW, I never had allergies as a kid, but for the previous decade I seemed to be developing worsening ones, so we decided I'd forgo anything with cow's milk protein for a month and see if that cleared up the condition, and it did.

I have since found that other substances seem to trigger it also, as does prolonged stress or prolonged exposure to cold temperatures (go figure) - or if not outright trigger it, at least exacerbates an existing minor patch. But cow's milk, and products containing whey/casein etc, seem to be the worst culprits.

I have had asthma and allergies all my life. However, with current medications and such, I don't feel that my asthma is a major problem these days. Rather it is eczema which has come to be a major concern. As you know, asthma, hay fever, and eczema are the three main manifestations of allergies for most people. For me these days, eczema is by far the worst. 

My feeling (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, while much research is being done and many treatments have emerged for asthma and hay fever, little is being done for eczema. I think the reason for this is probably (from a business point of view) that there are substantially fewer people around with severe eczema (as compared to severe asthma and hay fever). Therefore, as the market for eczema treatments is relatively small, there is less emphasis on it in the pharmaceutical and other research laboratories of the world. 

Gary, I've had severe eczema for three years and tried all sorts of "natural" therapies. About 7 weeks ago I started taking Chinese herb tea prescribed and formulated by my Chinese acupuncturist/ dermatologist. The improvement has been unbelievable. I feel much better, my itching has reduced 90-95%, my sleeping patterns have returned to normal, and I'm not obsessed with my skin, which is now smooth and back to normal, except for a few sores on 3-5% of my lower body. The CHT (Chinese herb tea) has been the best therapy by far that I've found.

For those of you taking flax seed oil, how much do you take per day?

I would like to ask Julia for clarification of her experienece with Cyclosporine. Am I right in saying that while you took the drug you were fine and when you came off it you were just as bad as ever? And did you suffer any side effects? I ask because I am thinking of consulting my doctor about it. 

I take 9 flax/borage capsules per day. I used to take 12 (3 with each meal, then an extra 3 in between meals or at night), but am starting to scale back. They are made by pure encapsulations, inc. (small caps are their lettering, not mine) of Sudbury, Mass. 01776. They contain 500 mg of organic flax seed oil and 100 mg of organic borage oil each. I buy them from my homeopathic allergist.

I would like to know about people's experiences with prednisone use and the use of cyclosporine. I have had severe AD for the past few years and I had no choice but to take prednisone since my face and hands were becoming infected. I know the dangers of prednisone, but sometimes there is no choice. Is there anyone on maintenance doses?

I can't comment much on cyclosporin, since I have not used it. It does have a lot of disagreeable side effects, specially with long term use. Systemic steroids also have been associated to important side effects. They are a temporary measure, but I would try to avoid their long term use. 

A very interesting book on steroids, stress and the havoc they create in the body is "Why Zebras don't get ulcers", by Robert Sapolsky. It is difficult to make any comments, since everyone is different, and there may be many reasons to put someone on steroids or cyclosporin. 

I have used steroids with many patients. Having said this, in our institution we use PUVA very frequently, and I have recommended it to our eczema patients, with very good results. Dr. Warwick Morison has written a book on phototherapy where he explains the method we use. Initially I was very skeptical of this, but during the last few years I became a convert.

Hi Karen, I've used topical cortisone for over 30 years, and have had numerous bursts of Prednisone over the years for acute exacerbations. When one is desperate for relief, sometimes there is no real choice. In the past I always felt wonderful while on Prednisone--had great energy, felt wonderful because I looked 'normal' and forgot about eczema for a few weeks.

I just took a burst of the pills in late April-early May, and have felt terrible every since. The pills bothered my stomach, and I still don't feel back to normal. I feel like I have knots in my stomach; sometimes I get a tight band-like sensation across the ribcage; and sometimes I feel like a heavy weight is sitting on my ribcage.

I asked my Dr for the Prednisone because I'm acutely sensitive (facially only) to anything with a cortisone-base (ointment/cream), or any commercially prepared lotion because of all the chemical additives. I have yet to find "pure" white petrolatum without any stabilizer. I'm reduced to Crisco which isn't satisfactory at all--it doesn't soak in to alleviate the dryness.

The latest thing I read about cortisone use (Prednisone) is that it has highly detrimental effects over time to the kidneys, bones, heart and immune system, but it also escalates arteriosclerosis. Those of us who have used it to rescue ourselves from Hell can probably plan on a shortened life, due to complications involving the above organs and vessels. Caveat emptor!

Donna, you mention finding a cure. Has anyone told you there was one? The advice I got 35 years ago was that I "had to learn to live with it" and I don't think anyone else on this List has ever heard of a cure either. The fact is, there isn't any. Maybe you'll have better luck than all the rest of us. We'll be all ears! 

Instead of Crisco get some sesame oil or almond oil from a health food store. The regular oil you would use for cooking. They are the base ingredient for a good quality massage oil. I sometimes add one of those tiny Vitamin E oil bottles to a pint of the oil. If you apply when you skin is wet after a shower you won't be all greasy.

Karen, Sorry to hear about your face and hands - the two worst spots for eczema in my opinion. I've used prednisone too many times myself, but like you said, sometimes you just don't have a choice. When I get upset about side effects and shortened life span, I tell myself that the stress of living with untreated eczema probably takes a more severe toll on my old body and soul than does strategic steroid use. I've never noticed any short term side effects from systemic steroids. When I take the systemic stuff, I still need to use some topical steroids ( but much less than usual). I hope the pills you are on now clear you up for a long, long time if not forever.

Kristen, This sounds crazy, but have you ever tried using lard as a moisturizer? I know it has unique baking properties, so maybe it would work on the skin. Check with a health pro first because, being an animal product, it might have hormones or other impurities. I know my allergist says that food products are much purer than stuff made for the skin, but I think she was referring to Crisco and olive oil. 

I took Cyclosporine for a year. It was great. I didn't itch. I felt normal for the first time since I got AD at 13. Once I stopped it came right back. I was also subject to monthly blood tests and possible side effects. If your body can take it, it is a great respite from the disease.

I recommend Cyclosporine over prednisone. However, I abused prednisone, which is darn easy to do, for years (50 - 60 mg/day). The results were moon face (bloating), cataracts, glaucoma....and who knows what to come.

About the Flax oil. I've been taking up to 21 1000 mg caps from FOOD FOR THOUGHT. No dramatic changes. Why the mix of borage and flax?

Kristen, you can throw the liver into the pile of organs affected by prednisone if you have any sort of a long term viral problem..

I have no idea why my homeopathic allergist had me take the flax/borage capsules rather than just one or the other. I think they both provide the good ELA or GLA that our bodies may be needing. 

I've tried many "natural" methods of helping my eczema. The first therapy I tried was acupuncture, and it didn't help. It may have been the treatment, and it may have been that my acupuncturist was inexperienced. She had only been in practice for a year or less.

I've been taking Chinese herbs prescribed by a Chinese acupuncturist/dermatologist only for about 8 weeks. All of my eczema symptoms have vastly improved. This doctor does use acupuncture for some people, but in treating me she's just made up the Chinese tea and her own hand prepared ointments (without steroids).

Thanks for the suggestions, Gayle. I only need the oil/grease for my face and sometimes neck, but I am very leery about reactions. Not sure where to test the stuff out in a trial--where on one's face does one "test" before slathering it on--hopefully avoiding acute edema and inflammation? 

Hi Ann, Thanks for the suggstions about lard--I guess Crisco is lard, right? It just doesn't sink in and really lubricate the skin. And I end up with greasy hair inadvertently--which I detest. 

I agree with you about hands and face involvement with AD--our presentation to the world around us. Also, our most embarrassing and shameful, eliciting the stupid questions about what we look like. These days I have to bite my tongue hard to keep from making a sarcastic crack. Just not in the mood for insensitivities any more, and certainly not the shame of my youth. 

I don't think I've ever had any (known) long-term effects from Prednisone ever before either, and I assume the short-term uses were negligible, but of course I have no medical proof, and probably won't until I find out what I'm falling apart from in a few years! But since I have always advocated quality of life over quantity, I shan't have regrets on that score. 

Kristen, Lard isn't Crisco. Crisco is a lard substitute made from hydrogenated vegetable oils. Lard is pure animal fat; I think it has a heavier texture than Crisco so it might do a better job of holding moisture in the skin. I find that any moisturizer heavy enough for my skin gets my hair greasy and stains clothes. Oh well!

It sounds to me like your eczema has really "concentrated itself" on your face. I can remember times when I've had relatively normal skin everywhere except for one really bad spot. Once it was my ear canals; another time it was my lips; most of my school years it was my hands. In recent years, I've been covered with a rash, but with no real severe spots. Shelley could do a better metaphor than I can; but I imagine eczema to be like a blob of putty that can either spread itself thin over all of me, or it can lump itself real thick in one place. I don't know which is worse!

I used Prednisone for a number of years and got really hooked on it as my last resort when I was desperate for relief. Actually, my body couldn't break down the prednisone and I had to use a derivative called prednisolone. Anyway, I started with 8 tablets a day, then 7, 6, etc. down to 1 a day, and was able to just take 1 or 2 a day for quite awhile. At some point, the doctor refused to prescribe it for me and I had to get a relative who was a doctor give me the prescriptions. Finally I was able to get off it, but it was like kicking a narcotics habit. I was scared that I couldn't live without it. 

The key was that I found this strong antihistamine Tavist that I've taken ever since, twice a day. (Rx strength, not over the counter dose, which is only half the Rx strength) I know the Tavist works because several times I tried to cut the dose down to once a day, and within a week, my skin was so bad I needed a shot. Anyway, I've survived very well, and only occasionally need a shot of Kenalog during a bad spell. 

As for cyclosporine, I never took it, but I do know one woman who did. She took it for 6 months and it did nothing for her. Her doctor decided that her body was not absorbing the drug and that's why it didn't work. 

So these medications are not a sure thing, but when you are desperate you'll try anything. I know that when my doctor refused to refill my prednisolone Rx, I told him I'd rather kill myself than try to live without it. I was really that desperate. Thank god I had a relative who was willing to help me because I wasn't ready to quit at that time. 

It took me a while to mentally prepare to let go of the one drug that had helped me. When you've had no response to dozens of other drugs, you get very attached to anything that finally works. Doctors need to realize how important that can be when you've lived in agony for years without relief. When I told the doctor I'd rather commit suicide than go without it, he went to get a stretcher and take me to the psych ward, but I left the building via the fire escape and never returned to that doctor or that hospital.

Shelley, I'm glad you mentioned Tavist; I'd forgotten about it but it has helped me too. I used the over the counter Tavist (and its generic versions). I found that one Tavist and 2 asprin would just about clear me up overnight. I have no idea if it's safe to mix Tavist and asprin (I started doing this when I was really desparate and side effects didn't concern me at the time.) Tavist makes some people drowsy and it's pretty expensive (there were 3 of us taking it at one time!)

I know someone who has psoriasis who is going to take cyclosporine. She says she was guaranteed it would completely clear her (temporarily of course). 

Ann, Thanks for clueing me in about Crisco and lard--you can tell the kitchen isn't my hanging out place. Do you think that because lard is derived from animals, this might be an allergen? Maybe farfetched, but I've had so many facial exacerbations, I dread the thought of another one. Perfumes are derived from animal tissues and off limits for me. I don't think I even have lard in my kitchen and haven't for years. 

It is true for me, as for you, that eczema either messed up my face, or messed up the rest of me in years past. At this point I think I am in the throes of cortisone withdrawal--facially only. Am not using any for days on end. If I dare use even the light stuff, my face reddens up tremendously. Then it thickens up and dries up and sloughs, which I know now is a cortisone overuse symptom. I get so sick of dealing with this sh--. Crap. But thanks for all info. I really distance my memories of the AD experience, and when I read comments on this List, I recall that I've had the same experiences. I do a good job of blocking--almost too good. 

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